09/18/2003 - Minutes PROCEEDINGS OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 18 , 2003
The City Council of Salt Lake City, Utah, and the Redevelopment Agency Board, met in
a Special Joint Fact Finding Session on Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 5:30 p.m. in
Room 326, City Council Office, City County Building, 451 South State Street.
In Attendance: Council Members Carlton Christensen, Nancy Saxton, Jill Remington Love,
Dave Buhler, Dale Lambert, Eric Jergensen and Van Turner.
Also in Attendance: Rocky Fluhart, Chief Administrative Officer; Ed Rutan, City
Attorney; Cindy Gust-Jenson, Executive Council Director; Valda Tarbet, Deputy Director
of the Redevelopment Agency; Roger Boyer, President of the Boyer Company; Stan
Eichelbaum, President of Marketing Developments; Brenda Case Scheer, Dean of the
College of Architecture and Planning at the University of Utah; Alan Sullivan, Legal
Counsel for Property Reserve Incorporated; Ron Pastor, Principal of AEW Capital
Management; Bruce Heckman, Senior Vice President of Taubman Centers; David A. Wilcox,
Senior Vice President of Economics Research Associates in Los Angeles, California;
Michael Beyard, Urban Land Institute; Maureen McAvey, Senior Fellow of the Urban Land
Institute; and Pam Johnson, Deputy City Recorder.
Councilmember Christensen presided at and conducted the meeting.
The meeting was called to order at 5:32 p.m.
AGENDA ITEMS
#1. HOLD AN EXTENDED MEETING FOR INVITED GUESTS TO PROVIDE THEIR INPUT ON ISSUES
PERTAINING TO GATEWAY AND DOWNTOWN ZONING AND DEVELOPMENT.
A. Boyer Company Representatives.
Roger Boyer and Stan Eichelbaum briefed the Council. Mr. Boyer said a study by
the University of Utah in 1998 addressed retail in the Central Business District (CBD) .
He said the City' s share of Salt Lake County retail sales had gone from 43% in 1980 to
28% in 1997. He said the City invited the Boyer Company to consider the Brown
Field/Union Pacific Depot property as a unique opportunity to help stimulate downtown
development and retail.
Mr. Boyer said the master plan approved at that time talked about the following
uses: large scale such as retail that was part of a cohesive retail shopping center.
He said his company knew they were not zoned for department stores. He said the master
plan had no square footage limitations or limitation on seeking anchors for anticipated
retail. He said the former administration encouraged his company to go after users
such as Saks Fifth Avenue.
Mr. Boyer said the proposed petition would allow department stores in the Gateway
Mixed Use (GMU) zone. He said desirable anchors such as Nordstrom' s and Target had
been interpreted as department stores under the City's current zoning ordinance. He
said interpretation of the ordinance meant other than club membership retail, every
retailer in excess of 100,000 square feet would be considered a department store.
Mr. Boyer said department stores could be located on 47 blocks downtown. He said
Nordstrom's could be located at 900 South and 300 West or Redwood Road and North
Temple, but not Gateway, just three blocks from Temple Square. He said the proposed
petition would put downtown as a whole on a level playing field. He said Gateway
needed a new definition of department stores or department store zoning.
Mr. Boyer said some felt if Nordstrom' s relocated to Gateway rather than remain
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on Main Street, it would be better if they left the City altogether. He said that was
short sighted. He said downtown should be inclusive not exclusive. He said if downtown
was zoned for department stores it would give people additional reasons to come
downtown. He said Nordstrom's was needed to keep the City a regional retail draw.
Mr. Eichelbaum said his review of the Salt Lake market was positive. He said
even with this exciting opportunity, the City faced market realities. He said cities
had to evolve with momentum and develop with sense. He said development had to make
sense for the public, the developer and the user. He said the Council was facing
decisions that would impact the economic future of downtown and tax generation for the
City for years to come.
Mr. Eichelbaum said in the 1990's downtown productivity dropped by 20% because
of highway and Main Street construction. He said retail was reduced to two malls and
a small core where many retailers did not survive. He said since Gateway opened,
restaurant and residential development along 200 and 300 West had spurred impressive
connectivity between anchor districts of downtown.
Mr. Eichelbaum said now the City was considering Nordstrom's request. He said
national retailers were watching. He said Nordstrom's loss would hurt recruitment
of highly desirable retailers. He said it could send convention shopping to Fashion
Place Mall and tax dollars to the suburbs. He said convention booking desirability
and restaurant use could be impacted. He said the loss could impact office rent
potential and residential desirability.
Mr. Eichelbaum said it was hoped Nordstrom's would change their mind and become
part of the new Main Street plan. He said Nordstrom' s had said their performance
potential could not withstand the disruption of two to three years of construction.
He said he agreed with other consultants that multi-districting was the key to success.
Councilmember Lambert said it was reported in both the Deseret Morning News and
the Tribune that the Boyer Company said they did not need large scale anchor stores
for Gateway to succeed. Mr. Boyer said it was his impression the original master plan
contemplated large scale users. He said the definition of department stores would be
refined or revised with the proposed petition. He said Gateway was not seeking a
department store. He said they wanted larger tenants.
Councilmember Lambert asked if Gateway needed large scale anchors to succeed.
Mr. Boyer said other retail tenants would be complemented and supported by those types
of anchors. Mr. Eichelbaum said Gateway should not be thought of as an urban
entertainment center. He said the center needed to solidify with weekday shoppers.
Councilmember Buhler said the Boyer Company had agreed to the 45,000 square foot
limit on retail space. Mr. Boyer said at the time Boyer had a contract with the
Olympic Committee to deliver 320 to 330 apartment units for the Olympics, or face a
steep penalty. He said the retail limitation was amended at that time. He said Boyer
was able to negotiate an exception for two current tenants already in the project. He
said had Boyer not spent $20, 000, 000 to purchase the ground, they might not have
accepted the terms given.
Councilmember Love said experts had said Gateway was too large to be a lifestyle
or urban center. She asked how Gateway compared to working centers in other cities.
Mr. Eichelbaum said an urban entertainment center was predominantly entertainment, and
most did not succeed. He said most cities had gone back and solidified the center
which added footage. He said Gateway was successful in terms of Salt Lake's market,
but it still needed to solidify in tenant performance. He said having Nordstrom
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downtown was essential to the retail envelope.
Councilmember Love asked if Gateway would be here in five years without a major
anchor. Mr. Boyer said some tenants were doing well and some needed a boost. He said
daytime traffic in the first part of the week was less than needed. He said same store
sales had averaged an increase of 9% to 11% each for the last five months.
Councilmember Saxton said it was suggested stores left urban core settings for
the suburbs due to the lack of integrity of City zoning. Mr. Eichelbaum said it had
been an issue in other cities. He said government controls were necessary to keep
a responsible community, but the nature of retail was changing at an incredible pace.
He said for the industry to succeed, they needed to be provided the economics. He
said having a stringent policy that did not flex to differing economic times or
psychology of consumers did not work. He said cities had to remain flexible.
Councilmember Jergensen said the Gateway Master Plan in the GMU zone would provide
a broad mixture of small and medium commercial tenants. He said it would promote
neighborhood scale development with emphasis on unique and specialty stores and
neighborhood services. He said the master plan supported Main Street as the primary
retail corridor. He said allowing large scale fashion retailers in the GMU zone would
eliminate Main Street as the primary retail core.
Mr. Boyer said the master plan talked about large scale users that were expected
and large scale development such as planetariums and other types of museums. Mr.
Eichelbaum said Gateway was part of downtown. He said the entire downtown financial
economic model needed to be considered. He said the Boyer Company wanted and needed
Main Street to come back. He said a block by block evaluation assessment including
all projects needed to be done.
Councilmember Turner said discussion of successful lifestyle centers indicated
residents needed grocery stores not fashion retail. Mr. Boyer said that was why a
Target store would be ideal. He said area residents had to drive to purchase groceries
and other fundamental household items. He said if desirable retailers came it would
prompt others to follow.
Councilmember Turner said there were size limitations for big box users on Main Street.
He asked if Mr. Boyer envisioned them near the Gateway area. Mr. Boyer said current
department store definitions would not allow them. Mr. Eichelbaum said providing the
right servicing of the community was essential.
B. Brenda Case Scheer, Dean of the College of Architecture and Planning at the
University of Utah.
Dean Scheer briefed the Council. She said she was an urban planner with expertise
in urban revitalization. She said compared to other cities, downtown Salt Lake had a
great look and feel with a lot of draws. She said viable in-town neighborhoods were
important. She said those neighborhoods looked to downtown for most of their needs.
Dean Scheer said cities with two or more times the population of Salt Lake
offered thousands of square feet less office space, housing units and retail space.
She said they offered no tourism, transit and had negligible retail. She said the image
of a dying downtown was incongruent with all of Salt Lake's success. She said the
City had allowed a few vacant store fronts to stir an unwarranted frenzy. She said
Salt Lake needed to promote itself nationwide. She said Salt Lake City' s success
happened due to policies the City Council and leaders of the community had made over
the years. She said most policies had been in place for over 50 years.
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Dean Scheer said problems on Main Street were created with the past ownership of
Crossroads. She said there were missed opportunities when the retail mix shifted
causing Nordstrom's to want to leave Crossroads, not downtown. She said malls in
particular were out of date and internalized and decreased sidewalk traffic making
downtown appear deserted. She said Main Street needed circulation patterns that drew
people down the street.
Dean Scheer said there were three successful criteria reflected in the Council's
policy statement: She said (1) continue the concentration of central place activities;
enact policies and make strong bids for important regional, one of a kind, cultural,
tourist, sport and government uses; fight hard for State offices, County functions,
post offices, theaters and other activities that support the regional central place
idea. She said the region was vibrant, growing and exciting. She said downtown could
not help but succeed if it was the central heart of this activity. She said downtown
needed to be recognized as a large physical area measured by a strong center and fluid
edges.
She said (2) continue a policy which recognizes, enhances and spreads the quality
of urbanity throughout the central core. She said urbanity was a sense of density,
closeness, and excitement born of the possibility of the unexpected. She said the un-
programmed along side the programmed, the historic layered with the new and the tourist,
the businessmen and the resident mixing together. She said it was authentic because
it was lived in and experienced by generations who each contributed. She said Utah
urbanity could only be found in parts of downtown. She said downtown needed an essence
that was impossible to imitate.
Dean Scheer said urbanity demanded street activity, street front retail infill
of urban oriented buildings where gaps existed such as vacant parking lots,
concentration of competitive restaurants, clubs, entertainment and retail uses in a 24
hour base of residential activity. She said urbanity demanded that internal malls and
skyways that separated people from the street should be removed.
Dean Scheer said (3) downtown residents must support the continued viability and
convenience of in town neighborhoods, whether at Gateway or Z.C.M.I. She said the
retail, movies, apparel, restaurants, discount goods, grocery stores and other daily
conveniences made living in the City's residential neighborhoods a reasonable choice.
Dean Scheer said two important tasks might be affected by Nordstrom's move: (1)
the policy of concentrating retail in two large internal malls did not encourage street
activity, circulation patterns, and parking access needed for Main Street stores. She
said Nordstrom' s departure from Crossroads might give the impetus to make difficult
and exciting changes that otherwise might be delayed while shopping mall mentality
continued to prevail.
She said (2) the City and property owners must prioritize connections between
Gateway and Main Street, especially along South Temple and 200 South. She said urban
gaps along these streets needed to be filled because that continuity would enhance the
experience of downtown as a diverse and unique place.
Dean Scheer said downtown neighborhoods needed the City' s support. She said the
important issue was supporting urban lifestyle locally. She said both a Nordstrom and
a Target were needed downtown. She said residents did not want the inconvenience of
distant travel to purchase daily items.
Dean Scheer said cities must change and grow otherwise they died. She said that
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did not mean abandoning fundamental values, the policies of promoting a central place
or the policies of promoting urbanity which had guided decisions for years.
Councilmember Buhler said decisions in the past had created a similar debate.
He said some felt building the downtown malls doomed the Broadway shopping area and
Main Street. Dean Scheer said the market would dictate success. She said Nordstrom's
had made it clear they were not succeeding at the current location. She said it was
time to make way for something that would succeed.
Councilmember Buhler said the question was how these changes affected downtown.
Dean Scheer said a single department store against all the other measures in downtown,
would make a difference in the long run.
Councilmember Love said she was concerned about office space shifting west of
Main Street. Dean Scheer said the fear was if Nordstrom moved to Gateway, the office
tenants would follow. She said the City needed to promote itself. She said the City
was naturally developing to the west.
Councilmember Turner said the north and south ends of Main Street seemed to be
the hardest to develop. He said those areas might be hard to link into the City core
as well. Dean Scheer said linking could be done by establishing pedestrian patterns.
She said another way to link would be with interior block passage ways or roads. She
said the City needed to capitalize on transit. She said people needed reasons to walk
down Main Street. She said like businesses should be grouped.
Councilmember Christensen said it might not be possible to zone with the
flexibility needed. Dean Scheer said Salt Lake was fortunate to have large blocks
with room for parking in the middle of the block.
Councilmember Lambert said housing was an important component. Dean Scheer said
affordable housing was needed downtown. She said it was difficult and expensive to
produce. She said at the same time high income housing needed to be promoted because
it made downtown look attractive.
C. Property Reserve Incorporated (PRI) representatives.
Alan Sullivan, Ron Pastor and Bruce Heckman briefed the Council. Mr. Sullivan
said he was legal counsel for Property Reserve, Incorporated (PRI) . He said the
petition before Council directly involved the institutional integrity of the City. He
said businesses and professional firms had invested significant amounts of money on
Main Street. He said a change in policy would discourage stores, business and
professional firms from investing in Main Street in the future. He said for
institutions to commit their futures and fortunes to Main Street they must have
confidence that the City had made the same commitment. He said six months ago Property
Reserve announced plans to buy Crossroads Plaza. He said they brought in a team to
assist in the redevelopment of blocks 75 and 76 on Main Street between South Temple
and 100 South and other parts of the downtown area. He said Council' s decision on
this issue could have serious consequences for the redevelopment project.
Mr. Pastor said the benefits of downtown Salt Lake outweighed the problems. He
said most cities did not have a major residential area base close to downtown. He
said there was a well-defined commercial corridor which ran from the State Capitol
through Temple Square and down Main Street. He said when talking about the fabric of
a downtown it meant interplay between the built environment and the human activity
that took place in it.
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Mr. Pastor said other major issues were the mall designs and the bifurcation of
department stores. He said his definition of a department store was fashion oriented
store or destination retail. He said destination retail was different from support
retail. He said retail supported a neighborhood or residential growth. He said people
shopped support retail three or four times a day. He said PRI wanted to expand infill
opportunities throughout the City to support the Main Street Corridor and Gateway.
Mr. Heckman said the Taubman Company had a sincere interest in being a major
equity downtown. He said they would provide comprehensive redevelopment of the combined
centers owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (L.D.S.) on Main
Street. He said plans would open the combined centers to light and surrounding streets
in a manner that enhanced customer convenience and promoted maximum synergy with Main
Street and the rest of downtown.
Mr. Heckman said if policy was altered and fashion retail department stores were
allowed at Gateway, then interest in the project would wane. He said they would likely
leave because prospects for success would be eliminated by the bifurcation of the
market place. He said major retail corporations needed to have predictability for
future investments.
Councilmember Love said there had been discussion of how the malls had impacted
Main Street. She asked if building another mall was the answer. Mr. Heckman said if
a mall was built correctly it would reinforce downtown. Mr. Pastore said malls had
to connect and relate to the street. He said days of building closed malls were gone.
Councilmember Love said she was concerned with the amount of retail downtown.
Mr. Heckman said plans included downsizing the facility and introducing other
additional mixed uses. Mr. Pastore said attention would be given to circulation and
pedestrian space in the mall. Mr. Heckman said Main Street had the beginnings of
controlled flow with the prohibitive left hand turns. He said additional enhancements
were needed. He said plans were to open up the centers to walk in directly off the
street and restaurants that addressed the street. Mr. Pastore said people needed the
perception they could drive to an area or drive through it. He said many lifestyle
centers and urban entertainment centers allowed traffic to flow in and out of the
center.
Councilmember Saxton asked if other retailers were only interested in relocating to
Salt Lake if Nordstrom's remained. Mr. Heckman said major retailers had been told
Nordstrom's or a suitable replacement would be downtown. He said they had talked to
several retailers about being a suitable replacement in that area. He said there was
enthusiasm, merchants liked the market and Salt Lake was a great place to do business.
He said the City would be able to pick and choose.
Councilmember Jergensen asked if redevelopment plans included increased housing
downtown. Mr. Pastore said areas were being identified for mid-rise housing.
Councilmember Jergensen said the L.D.S. Church facilities and campus to the north would
lose their protection if Crossroads Mall was opened up. Mr. Pastore said people from
out of town did not realize there was a mall across the street. He said the core of
the City should open up. He said Crossroads needed a façade that said activity and
connectivity behind them to pull people through to Main Street.
Councilmember Jergensen said it had been indicated bifurcation of downtown retail would
signal the death of downtown retail, both at the Gateway and at Main Street. Mr.
Heckman said he was referring to bifurcation of major fashion retail department stores.
He said there were different categories and segments of retail. He said key to
maintaining the vibrancy of Main Street as a core retail facility, was having an
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undisputed central place in downtown where those unique, one of a kind fashion related
stores were located. He said there was not a big enough market to have them in several
locations. He said the City could not bifurcate locations of major fashion retail
stores. He said splitting those areas would move retailers out of downtown and into
the suburbs.
Councilmember Turner said one of Nordstrom' s complaints was lack of square footage.
He said Taubman was proposing additional anchors in smaller retail areas. Mr. Pastore
said it was the environment not the size that was important in creating a world class
center.
Mr. Pastor talked about the benefits of downtown Salt Lake and how other cities were
struggling.
Councilmember Christensen said a department store' s life expectancy was about 10 years.
He said it might be unwise to expect anchor tenants to hold a mall together for years.
Mr. Pastore said department stores were run by merchants. He said they were continually
reinventing how best to compete. He said the industry focused on lifestyle and always
came back strong. Mr. Heckman said the retailers that survived were sophisticated.
He said they worked to add uniqueness and diversity to their offerings.
Councilmember Lambert said City zoning allowed only certain types of large scale
anchors at Gateway. Mr. Pastore said differentiation would identify support retail
verses destination retail. He said support retail was necessary for neighborhood
quality.
D. David A. Wilcox, Senior Vice President of Economics Research Associates in
Los Angeles, California.
David A. Wilcox briefed the Council. He said future retention of Salt Lake
Community and Economic Development (CED) retail was almost entirely dependant upon
metropolitan area residents. He said challenges were revitalization of 20 to 28 year
old properties on the two super blocks. He said programs needed to be designed to
keep scales appropriate for the next 20 years with mixed use. He said the City needed
to work toward better connectivity between the two super blocks and Gateway. He said
Trax needed to be continued to the airport. He said the west side wanted new, better
and affordable retail. He said challenges would occur during construction and
reconstruction. He said an enormous amount of reinvestment funding was required.
Mr. Wilcox said it was imperative to maintain and position the draw to downtown.
He said that meant repositioning larger stores on more than two blocks of Main Street.
He said retail should go along Main Street from 100 South to 300 South and include
frontages on West Temple. He said State Street going south needed to be reconfigured
and repositioned for connectivity.
Councilmember Jergensen asked if the City had a clear course of action considering
the economic and zoning situations. Mr. Wilcox said Gateway needed the addition of
larger tenants. He said lifting the 45,000 square foot cap would help.
Councilmember Turner said Gateway already had high fashion retail. He said
Nordstrom's relocation would saturate the area with high fashion apparel. He said
Target would provide a better lifestyle mix. Mr. Wilcox said lifting the 45,000 square
foot limitation would draw a Target or like store which offered more affordable
household articles and apparel.
E. Michael Beyard and Maureen McAvey, Senior Fellows from the Urban Land
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Institute.
Michael Beyard and Maureen McAvey briefed the Council. Mr. Beyard said the Urban
Land Institute was a non-profit education and research organization. He said it was
designed to improve quality of land use and development worldwide. He said they
provided advice, strategic ideas and input. He said their goal was to help create
more successful retailing in Salt Lake City. He said there were steps needed to ensure
downtown retailing continued to serve City citizens and continued to be the largest
destination retail in the Wasatch front. He said downtown Salt Lake City had tremendous
assets. He said that was one reason the City maintained a larger retailing base than
larger cities. He said continued successful downtown retailing needed to be thought
of and planned as an entire district.
Mr. Beyard said the Z.C.M.I. Center, Crossroads, Gateway, Trolley Square and
street front retail should be concentrations of complimentary retailing serving
multiple markets. He said serving those markets was complex and made the difference
between downtown shopping and traditional suburban regional shopping centers. He said
the mix of retailing necessary to interest people at different times and in different
locations made it a complex task.
Mr. Beyard said retail was not only bifurcated but trifurcated in the City. He said
fashion retailers were located from Trolley Square through Main Street to Gateway. He
said each district was fragile and still in transition. He said the most difficult
and costly transition would be the Z.C.M.I. Center and Crossroads. He said he did not
believe Nordstrom' s would stay at Crossroads. He said the decision now was if
Nordstrom' s would remain in the downtown area. He said suburban fortress malls were
emerging as the largest regional shopping centers. He said if Nordstrom left downtown
it would reemerge in a strong fortress mall. He said the fortress mall would become
the alternate downtown for the City.
Mr. Beyard said what worked for retailing in the past might not work in the future
because of continuing transitions. He said demographic changes were driving retail.
He said customers wanted more than traditional retailing. He said department stores
continued to decline. He said new style anchors were immerging. He said many shopping
centers were being anchored by multiple smaller anchors.
Ms. McAvey said zoning and planning issues needed to be revisited. She said the
overall amount of retail space should be reduced in the downtown area. She said
permissible use should be allowed but not required. She said extensive planning needed
to be given to the layout of downtown. She said planning should be given to how store
fronts and setbacks would look. She said flexibility should be a priority and
flexibility with shared parking should be encouraged.
Ms. McAvey said Nordstrom' s should be allowed to make a business decision. She
said that meant removing the 45,000 square foot limitation and department store
definition at Gateway. She said in six or nine months, planning issues should be
revisited. She said requirements and contractual agreements at Gateway could be
reevaluated at that time. Councilmember Jergensen said he agreed with the emphasis on
downtown as a large downtown, rather than pieces needing to be connected. He said it
was important to develop the planning process with that view. He said he was concerned
about the issue of bifurcation.
Ms. McAvey said the market should be allowed to guide the direction of change.
She said constraints and policy would still be needed. She said the City would be
evolving for years. She said although decisions involving Gateway needed to be
addressed now, it would continue to evolve over the next three to five years. She
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said Main Street would evolve as well. She said more mixed use would be seen over the
next 10 years.
Mr. Beyard said connectivity would create synergy from one project to another.
He said it would take time to evolve. He said smaller stores and other activity
generators would need to begin to fill in spaces between major anchors. He said
several small restaurants located on 200 South were beginning to emerge because of the
continuation of the Gateway area. He said the proposed plans for the reconfiguration
of Main Street would lead the shopper away from the inside and out onto the street.
He said it was a natural progression.
Councilmember Christensen said Nordstrom' s wanted a decision by mid-October. He
said it was not in the City's interest to allow the move and side step the current
zoning process. Ms. McAvey said the City could not afford to bypass the ordinary
process, the Planning Commission process or the review process. She said the City
needed to question what Nordstrom' s envisioned. She said the Council could tell
Nordstrom's they were willing to consider a zoning change within a reasonable time
frame to keep them downtown.
Councilmember Lambert said people invested on the Main Street corridor in
reliance to what they understood City policy to be. He said if the policy was changed,
it would send a bad signal to retailers around the country. He said it would hurt
economics to have Nordstrom' s leave Salt Lake City. Ms. McAvey said it was a problem
for cities when major investors and anchors expressed concerns. She said the message
the retail market was looking for from the City was how viable downtown would remain
over time. She said they needed to know if they could count on the Council to take
steps to continue to enhance the viability of downtown as a whole. She said if downtown
was viable and enhanced for everyone, it would continue to pay off investments already
been made.
Councilmember Lambert said the work force on Main Street enjoyed the amenities
of retail and restaurants. He said if the retail core shifted or major activity
migrated to Gateway or elsewhere, it would lead to further leakage of Main Street. Ms.
McAvey said it also provided opportunity to strengthen and expand downtown, enhance
office space and the employment base. She said residential areas were increasing in
and near downtown. She said that was a great incentive for office users and investors.
Councilmember Saxton said people came to visit specifically for Nordstrom's and
she felt they were important for Salt Lake City. She said she hoped Nordstrom's felt
the City had been good for them as well.
The meeting adjourned at 9:21 p.m.
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